Elon vs Trump: The Circus Has Come to Town

Transcript

0:00 Welcome to Radio Abundance, a podcast by YIMBY Democrats for America. It's time to build again, folks. Fascism never made America great, but when progressives build, that's where you'll find American greatness. Tonight, as Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says: Oh man, the girls are fighting, aren't they? That's right, folks. It's Elon vs Trump. And who better to talk about it than the Congressman from Silicon Valley, Roe Kauna, coming up right now on Radio Abundance. You're listening to Radio Abundance, a podcast by YIMBY Democrats for America. Now let's get to the show. Tonight, there's a cage match in America. In this corner, he's the South African rocket man whose social media app is full of Nazis. It's Elon Musk!

0:46 In this corner, he's the erratic elderly pedophile who got rich by pretending to be rich on TV. He's blowing up the deficit, stifling the economy, and stuffing so many innocent people into vans and sending them to concentration camps that he might actually be a Nazi. It's Donald Trump. Elon Musk, the University of Pennsylvania, space guy. Donald Trump, the University of Pennsylvania, wannabe dictator. Let's get ready to rumble!

1:29 Congressman Roe Kauna, welcome to Radio Abundance. Thank you for having me. This is going to be a fast and furious conversation. We were going to meet for longer today, discuss all things Trump and Progressive Abundance. We will now do that at a later date. You are running around like crazy. We're going to put this episode out immediately. It is an emergency podcast today. Right. We can talk about that still. I mean, whatever you want. Oh, well, we'll get it in there. There is there's some news in American politics today. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what's going on? Well, Trump and Musk finally got divorced. I predicted four months. Now it's five months. I've been asking who wins the custody battle over J.D. Vance. I mean, he's going to have to pick Team Musk here or Team Trump.

2:15 But, you know, Musk told the truth that this budget would explode deficits in a way that we've never seen in American history. Unprecedented deficit deficits more than we've had in the last 50 years, the most fiscally irresponsible budget probably in American history. And Musk basically said that he also said the most irresponsible tariffs in American history with causing a recession in the next six months. And so Musk is unplugged, sharing what he's been sharing privately with many people. And now he's going public. The do you think this is a distraction from the policy things that are happening, the big, beautiful bill or big bullshit bill that will explode the deficit and throw 16 million people off their health insurance? Or or is this part of that story and will lead to actual policy changes and maybe consequences?

3:06 No, it's not a distraction. It's the reality of what this bill will do. It's economically disastrous. The Democrats have pointed out it's morally disastrous. It's going to kill, kick 13 million or 16 million, depending on which study off of health care. Got Medicaid, got food assistance for tax breaks for the billionaires. Now you have the world's richest person who is a a someone who Trump calls really important in the economy, saying not only is this morally disastrous, this is one of the worst economic policies of any president in American history, that it's going to create the worst deficits in peacetime that this country has ever known and that it's going to cause a recession because of the blanket tariffs in the second half of this year. And I think it is devastating. I think this is the single biggest blow for Donald Trump in his entire political career, because he has someone who he has touted as an economic leader saying that Donald Trump doesn't understand economic policy.

4:00 You know, his first term, right, his chief of staff later called him a fascist and said he would govern like a dictator. You had a ton of people in his cabinet calling him a fascist, hiding papers, taking them off his desk because they thought he they he would do such economically disastrous things. But you think this is number one. Well, I think this is the biggest blow to his credibility, because Donald Trump has always maintained the sense he's a billionaire. He knows what he's doing. He knows about the economy. It's why people get the benefit of the the economy in the first term really hurt poor people and hurt people who were out of work and who were struggling. But overall, the GDP numbers were fairly decent and until the pandemic and then, of course, the pandemic really caused a disaster.

4:51 But it was not nearly as terrible as this term where you have economic incoherence, economic nonsense and Musk couldn't hold it in any longer. He just had to tell the truth that this is the worst bill in terms of deficits. And they said blanket tariff policy is economic disaster. And so, you know, people shouldn't focus as much, I think, on the personal rift as much as you have this person who has the richest person of the world is a leading innovator calling Donald Trump's policies economically bankrupt. You know, it was one of the hardest things this past election season while phone banking knocking on doors in Pennsylvania. You talk to people who said they really enjoyed the Trump economy in his last term and trying to convince them that, you know, that wasn't what he wanted to do.

5:39 He wanted to impose these tariffs that will cause an immediate recession, blow up the cost of living, raise inflation, blow up the deficit and and that this term he would be unhinged and free to pursue the course he wanted. And, yeah, we're seeing it now and it's dark. You mentioned that Elon Musk has been saying some of this in private. I kind of wonder if you're one of the folks you've he's heard you've heard from. You know, I know I just caught you on CNN. You mentioned speaking to Elon just before Trump took office. And I wonder if you can tell us anything about about that conversation and just what Elon might have expected going in and what what turned out differently. Well, Elon thought he would really be able to cut deficits. I told him that I'd be happy to convene 25 Democrats, including Senator Warren, Senator Sanders, talk about where we could cut in defense, talk about Medicare advantage and how they're up billing and the fraud there and where we cut fossil fuel subsidies, which he referenced in a tweet today.

6:37 He didn't go down that road. He made the decisions that I fundamentally believe were unconstitutional. I said I would subpoena him voted to subpoena him today. He then lashed out at me, said my career was over. And then, you know, later on, he appreciated that. I said we shouldn't be vandalizing Teslas and rooting for a Tesla stock to go down because there are American workers in my district and around the country who are affected by that. But I haven't spoken to him since all of this. But I do know through a lot of his associates and confidence that he was very, very uneasy about the tariffs. He's been uneasy about the pause on international students. He was really muted as a slap in the face, this deficit bill. And the question was just, was he going to continue to bite his tongue?

7:24 And, you know, something broke the straw that broke the camel's back and he's now unleashed. And I don't think he's ever coming back to Trump or Vance. And we'll see with Vance. I mean, it really is a existential moment for him. Is he going to pick his Silicon Valley friends, Peter Thiel and Musk, of course, close associates, started PayPal? Or is he going to write off Elon and stick with Trump? I mean, what do you think? Is he more in the Peter Thiel authoritarian wing of Silicon Valley or is he more eating the dogs and cats culture war Trumpism? I don't know. It's a real problem because he sucked up to both. And that's why I said it's sort of a custody dispute. And we'll see. But every question from now on to J.D. Vance is, are you team Musk or team Trump? I mean, that's what every journalist should be asking him.

8:12 You know, talking about Elon's expectations coming in, something I've heard a lot from Democrats is, hey, we care about government. Efficiency and cutting waste, fraud and abuse. And we do, in fact, care about the deficit. And Doge did, in their words, and I would say mine, none of those things. Right. It sort of went after leftist projects and and the American project worldwide. And USAID and PEPFAR cuts are expected to have a death toll in the millions over the next few years. I mean, now that Elon Musk Doge has ended, what's what's your verdict? It was a death sentence from for so many. And it's eroded our moral leadership around the world. Veterans have been fired. The impact on young kids in Africa and elsewhere is is unconscionable.

9:00 And then you look at the gutting of medical research, cancer research at places like NIH. I mean, obviously, it was a disaster. And I've spoken out about that and said that. But, you know, some of my Democrat friends are saying, OK, because it was a disaster, why are we amplifying Elon Musk? Well, if Elon Musk, who has millions of followers, is saying that Trump's economic policies are a disaster, then we should be amplifying that. We should be helping to highlight Trump's own confidence or turning on him and telling the truth. Let's talk about Silicon Valley for a second. I am about 15 minutes from your congressional district. My my clients are in my artistic and creative career are Apple and Google and Meta.

9:49 I think you and I both care a lot about Silicon Valley, which has been traditionally left wing and aligned with Democrats and aligned with progressive social values. You know, the other day you mentioned redemption in the context of Elon Musk. I was asked about that yesterday. And what I said was, you know, redemption without repentance is hollow. But our battles lie ahead of us. You know, FDR allied with Stalin against Hitler. Sometimes, you know, we'll have these allies of convenience that make us bite our tongues so hard they bleed. But they are allies nonetheless. And I'm I'm personally hopeful about Silicon Valley. I think a lot of people in the Valley thought that Trump was going to be their ticket to build and are finding out that aging protectionist erratic fascists are not good partners. There's people like Peter Thiel that are out and out racist and authoritarian and will tell you so.

10:36 But I think most of the Valley is is is maybe up for grabs. And I wonder what you think about why Silicon Valley kind of started to go for Trump this past year and and what it looks like to win them back and build a future with them. Well, first, the opportunity. I mean, they reject this ban on pause on international students. They reject the attacks and the way they're happening on universities, not that that they think that universities were perfect, but they certainly don't believe the state should be dictating to private universities in the way that it is. They reject the anti science agenda, the decimation of NSF, the decimation of NIH. They reject the blanket tariffs and the unstrategic way in which the that Trump is hurting markets around the world and hurting companies here.

11:22 They reject the huge deficit spending that Trump is engaged in and they reject the intimidation tactics that Trump is engaged in the biggest expansion of the state. So that's the opportunity. Now, why did they leave the Democratic Party? I think the Democratic Party was not vocal enough on free speech, made people feel judged for every word they were saying and not celebrated and give people a sense of mission that the entrepreneurs and technologists were builders and they're doing great, great things for society. And we need to make sure that everyone is participating in this new industrial renaissance. And so we need to be championing technologists and entrepreneurs in this country. I believe also we need to be championing free speech.

12:09 We need to make sure that people don't feel canceled if they say the wrong thing. Don't feel like they're the oppressor because of who they are. And I think that there's a correction in Democratic politics so that we can win them back. Let's segue now from Silicon Valley to abundance as promised. Then we can make the segue. You know, I lived in San Francisco for for for probably about half my life and and and have friends in the artistic community, friends in the tech community. So I have seen how why I've seen why the left wing turned on Silicon Valley. I've seen why Silicon Valley felt rebuked by the left wing and turned on them. And and and, you know, YIMBY Democrats for America really are a part of our mission is building a bigger tent and being able to go to Silicon Valley and say, hey, bail on fascism and sign up with Democrats who build.

12:59 And it's also about going to the furthest point left in the party and saying, look, the road to our longstanding progressive goals and that FDR era that that you idolize the road to that is abundance and what we call Progressive Abundance in presidential elections. You've been further left than I have. Right. You endorsed Bernie Sanders in 2016 for president. You were a co-chair of his 2020 presidential run from your position with a foot there in a foot in abundance. I mean, how do you connect these dots? Well, I connect them with the FDR vision. Look, abundance is an outcome driven philosophy. It says we need to build more and build faster. Now we can talk about how we get there. And abundance believes that one of the avenues is we need less restrictive zoning for building housing, that we need reform of things like CEQA in California that have been used for means to slow down projects, that we need to have the capacity to have permitting done in a in a faster way without compromising our environmental or labor standards.

14:06 Some of that may mean increasing capacity to be able to do it. But what it's saying is that we should not have a restrictive zoning in housing or a permitting process that makes it harder to build. And more broadly, that it's not simply enough to say, OK, we passed a bill and had money. We need to have measurable outcomes. We need to drive to outcomes to make sure that there's execution in in in in building. That's what FDR did. That's how we industrialize the country. Now, do I think that the abundance agenda is sufficient? No, I think you need federal financing. I think you need workforce development. I think you need government procurement. I think you need to have the local community figure out what economic development will take and have credentialing programs at community colleges and skills programs in a in a White House economic development council.

14:57 I call it a Marshall Plan for America with business leaders, government leaders, local leaders, academics. But the abundance part of it is one quiver in a vision to build. And I think that often what progressives are saying and what the abundance folks are saying are different parts, different quivers of something that we need. But in a vision to have new dreams and build big things in America, that's what's going to inspire people. It's not the technocratic let's do permitting and zoning reform. It's let's be the nation like Kennedy years that are going to have new missions, do big things again. You know, on that note, I've often listened to my kind of left wing artist community and my more moderate tech community yelling at each other while thinking as someone who can code switch that you're saying the same thing in different words.

15:46 And I'll bet you've had that experience, too. And to put you on a spot, I am curious right now if you can take a stab at two things for me very quickly. Can you sell left Democrats on abundance and can you sell Silicon Valley on progressivism? Let me take the second one first. I have a district of 14 trillion dollars. Some of your clients, Apple, Google, Tesla, Nvidia, Broadcom, five companies over a trillion dollars in a 50 mile radius. When I was growing up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, this would have seemed inconceivable to have a one trillion dollar company, let alone five of them. And yet we have a country where people don't have health care. Yet we have a country where people don't have a living wage. Yet we have a country where people can't afford child care. Yet we have a country where folks like me grew up middle class, have to go into over one hundred thousand dollars of debt to finish their education.

16:37 Why in a country which is going to produce more wealth than ever before in a zip code that I represent that's going to produce more wealth than in the history of humanity. Certainly we can afford to have everyone have health care, child care and education and that that is the building blocks for everyone living up to their potential and for this country not to be divided the way it is. So I believe it's in the enlightened interest of technology leaders. If they want to lessen the bitterness, lessen the division and help lead against China to embrace progressive policies for progressivism, I say it's not going to be enough for us just to have the strong social safety net. That's important. But we also are going to need productivity. We're also going to need new economic jobs.

17:24 You know, my district has terrible housing policy, but we're only four hundred and 19th out of four hundred thirty five in Renford. And the reason is we have a lot of high income jobs in my district. Now, we need more housing and it's too gentrified. But the point is, the biggest way out of poverty is a high paying, good job. And to have a high paying, good job, we need production and we need productivity and we need to build things and we need to build things everywhere. And that's what the abundance agenda is doing. So we need this FDR had it right back in the 30s. Of course, we need a modern technology vision with it and we need a more multiracial participation. But that can be not just a majority vision that can be an inspiring vision. This country craves leadership. If you'll allow me to add to that, you know, I think of it like government needs abundance to write if you want to see the government to take on big social projects and build public housing.

18:21 Well, they're subject to the same zoning laws. They're also subject to the neighborhood coming out and saying, no, don't build that here. So anything you want the government to do on behalf of people, they need permission and legality and also they need tax revenue, which means you want people boosting the economy so that you can soak them for money to spread around. You can't redistribute it if it doesn't exist. Let's let's says we come to a close. Just come back to to Elon and what the future of Elon looks like. You know, this this guy, I mean, going back a few years, right, built some of the most amazing companies in world history. Right. I've had friends at SpaceX. I have watched SpaceX rocket launches with my own eyes. It was awesome. Starlink is against Elon's own tastes, helping Ukraine to defend themselves against Russia. It is also an amazing invention.

19:09 You know, what hope is there for this guy? I mean, a lot's gone on since his family breakdown and his drug addiction and his hard turn to the right and maybe too much Twitter. Um, does this guy, can he go on a path of de radicalization and sobriety? Can he be an ally? Uh, I, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's his break with Trump is a lot for bringing some of his fans and followers in our direction, but, uh, you know him. What's the future for Elon look like? Well, I don't think he's predictable having. I do think that the first thing is it's good that he's speaking out against the most irrational Trump policies. That is something that people should highlight because it creates some chat on Donald Trump, whether Donald Trump wouldn't have won Pennsylvania without Elon Musk and whether Elon Musk influences 5%, 10%, 20%, whatever of his base.

20:00 It's a good thing that for that base, he's now speaking out and exposing the hollowness of Trump's policies. But, uh, you know, I was at actually at the Rockefeller Plaza recently and I looked at the plaque of John, John D Rockefeller and, and Rockefeller obviously had monopolies, but there was one line in there. He said, we've got to extinguish the selfishness of, uh, human beings and, uh, put it towards a, uh, greater public purpose. If not, life is not worth living. And I thought, okay, here, uh, I guess he, it was a monopolist, but he also started the university of Chicago and, uh, helped build libraries and helped contribute to the public good. Uh, and the question is just, is there going to be reflection, uh, in, uh, in Elon about what the public good is?

20:46 Uh, and I am a believer that obviously there needs to be accountability for the damage he's done for Doge, but ultimately this country desperately needs, uh, reconciliation. It needs healing. It needs the next generation, not to replicate the divides of the past generation and to have someone bring the country together. And, uh, in that hope we, yes, you need repentance, but there also has to be the opportunity for redemption around a common mission. And whether that'll work or not, I don't know, but, but, uh, you have to have a hope for a better country. This is a busy night for you as the congressman from Silicon Valley. So we got to let you go in a moment. I just want to ask, what'd we forget? Well, I, I am very, uh, excited about, uh, the abundance agenda. I, I've been a proponent of it before Ezra and Derek Thompson's book, but now, now it's even someone told me on my Wikipedia page that, that kind of the proponent of, uh, economically.

21:41 Uh, uh, economic patriotism and, uh, the abundance agenda and, and supported, uh, work for Barack Obama and supported Bernie Sanders twice. So I, I would like to, to see the democratic party, uh, adopt both progressive policies, Medicare for all, a living wage and the abundance policies on getting things built faster and better. And I guess I would just say, you don't have to agree with, uh, me on, uh, all the progressive policy. You don't have to agree with me on the abundance policies, but I don't see there to be an inherent intellectual contradiction between the two. Uh, I believe we can synthesize the two, but certainly we can take the best parts of the two. Uh, and we, we need to have a robust new vision for this democratic party, not the stillness. And that the vision that inspired my parents to come to America, a place that was humming and brimming with possibility and the moral leader of the world.

22:32 Uh, and if we do that, we have an amazing opportunity in 2026 to start to rebuild, uh, rebuild, uh, our democratic majority. You know, you and I were actually just, uh, just quoted next to each other in the same, uh, wall street journal article on, uh, abundance within the democratic party. It was the, uh, the first ever national print mention of the name. You can be Democrats for America of our missions to build America and defeat fascism, uh, and of our, our, our vision for, uh, Progressive Abundance. Um, what you're doing and I'm, I'm proud that you're from my, uh, home Bay area. Uh, and, uh, and it's, it's needed and I, I appreciate your leadership and I hope I didn't make your quote look bad. I, I, I haven't seen that clip yet, so I'm glad that we were in the same, uh, same piece. Well, it seems like we have a lot to talk about.

23:18 We owe each other a long conversation about Yimbyism, abundance, Democrats, democracy, Progressive Abundance, building America, defeating fascism, all the bullshit in Congress. Silicon Valley and what America is out and maybe the Jones act. Uh, Congressman Ro Khanna, we got to let you to go right now. Uh, thank you for joining us on a busy day, uh, for you and, and for Twitter and, uh, and, uh, we, we appreciate it, uh, so much. Uh, keep raising some hell out there. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for the work you do. You've been listening to radio abundance. Join the movement for Progressive Abundance at Yimby Democrats.org. Yes, we can build again. Yes, we can trounce the fascists. Yes, you can be the difference. This is AI, by the way.

24:04 You think these jokers actually got Obama? Check in with me in a few months. It'll happen. Thank you for listening to radio abundance, a new podcast by Yimby Democrats for America. Now it's time for you to join the movement. We're building a big tent and it's going to take all of us. Join us and together we'll fight to build America, defeat fascism and unleash the era of Progressive Abundance. Join the movement at Yimby Democrats.org.