San Diego All-Stars on Radio Abundance

Transcript

0:00 Welcome to Radio Abundance, a podcast by YIMBY Democrats for America. It's time to build again, folks. Fascism never made America great, but when progressives build, that's where you'll find American greatness. Tonight's episode was filmed on location in San Diego, featuring all-stars of the San Diego YIMBY scene. You'll hear from Gabrielle Worby, manager of the California Homelessness and Housing Curriculum for the Global Policy Leadership Academy. Alongside the president of YIMBY Democrats of San Diego County, Manny Rodriguez, and the head of advocacy and communications for YIMBY Democrats of San Diego County, Saad Asad. That's coming up right now on Radio Abundance. Please welcome your host for the evening, YIMBY Democrats for America executive director Steve Boyle. All right. Hello and welcome to Radio Abundance. I'm your host, Steve Boyle. I am the executive director of YIMBY Democrats for America. And we are here in person, in studio, in beautiful, sunny, and very hot today, San Diego. And I'm super excited to be here with three awesome folks in San Diego. Two of them from the YIMBY Democrats of San Diego County, including the president of YIMBY Democrats of San Diego County, Manny Rodriguez. Hey, Manny.

1:17 Hello. Good to see you, Steve. Uh, we also have Saad Asad, who is the communications chair of YIMBY Democrats of San Diego County. Hey, hey, hey. Uh, and we are here with Gabrielle Worvey, uh, who, I mean, the camera's in front of me. Gabrielle's behind me. So we'll do this. Maybe this will be like a cinematic shot. We can both stare into the camera. It'll be weird. Uh, Gabrielle behind me is an associate at the Global Policy Leadership Academy. Correct. Hi. Cool. Uh, thanks for welcoming me to San Diego. Thanks for being here. Yeah. Thanks for coming down during our, our nice heat wave. Yes. Uh, well, it's lovely to be here and it's exciting. I am always honored to be in the presence of and hanging out with folks from YIMBY Democrats of San Diego County. I mean, you are, I mean, the first and only YIMBY Democratic club for, I mean, years, for years, right? First in the nation.

2:06 First in the nation. And like, I mean, are we not the second? Like that is, and you, I mean, what, 2019? Like that's five, more than five years. Like you've been around a while on your own. Yeah. Early pioneers in the space, you know? Yeah. Uh, and that's very interesting to talk about, but we've already talked about that on a different podcast today. I want to learn a little bit more about what is going on in San Diego for folks around the nation tuning in. Uh, this is a great opportunity to get the, the local scoop from a couple of different folks. So what should people know about YIMBYism and abundance in San Diego right now? Yeah. Well, I want to say, first of all, thank you for having us on. The YIMBY movement, I believe is growing in a really good way. You know, we just had our annual summer soiree and it was the biggest we've ever had, you know, sold 200 tickets, packed room. You were there briefly. Thank you for stopping by and thank you for being a, you know, one of the sponsors for the event. And, you know, we're seeing our social media engagement increase, you know, year over the year. And I think that the movement is really starting to mature and we're seeing not just our movement, but movements across the state of California. You know, Saad can talk about what's going on with California and statewide, but I think that YIMBYism is a good place.

3:12 Nice. Uh, well then, I mean, you've been, you've been teed up, so I think you're up next. I'd still like to focus a little on San Diego and how it's been, I think, uh, uh, pioneering a lot of the things that, uh, uh, others, the rest of the state is kind of moving forward with just even like our big state bill SB 79, which would allow more apartments near transit. It's kind of already how a lot of San Diego is situated that we have our big trolley lines, uh, near transit. Um, we were one of the first to remove parking requirements near transit as well. So there's a lot of, uh, I think initiatives that San Diego has been on the leading edge of that, um, have really yielded a lot of permits and more homes. Um, in the past two years, 17,000 permits and the average before that was like 5,000. So it's about a near doubling of homes being permitted. So I think there's a lot of great things happening in the city of San Diego, still a lot more to be done. Nice. You know, it's, uh, I'd love your perspective in a second, but I just, I actually think San Diego is a fascinating case study, right? For a couple of reasons. Uh, one again, there's a community democratic group here and has been for a while. And, and at your, your big gala, one of the things that really did your soiree, I learned how to spell soiree for you. Uh, one of the things that came out to me at the soiree, uh, I said, like it was, it's a great party and it was very well attended and it was very well attended by people in office and you've really built like an exceptional, I thought community of folks here who are really engaged on this issue. San Diego to me is really interesting because if you, you know, I mean, California, you think of California, you think of the big cities, uh, San Francisco check LA check, right? Like, you know, and then San Diego is like, it's a little farther down, but it's very interesting to me. First of all, anything on the California coastline, it seems to me if you had more open zoning would all look like Manhattan because it is the single best place to live in the world in terms of weather and, and beauty and economy and stuff to do. Like the only limitations are the self-imposed limitations, but also, you know, if I think of San Francisco, it is like seven miles by seven miles. It's a tiny postage stamp place that is, you know, wants to be a big city and has stopped itself from that. Right. LA is enormous sprawl. It does have downtown. I quite like downtown LA.

5:25 Not everybody does, right? LA is not known for being an urban downtown. People often blank out that that's the case and think about the general sort of Hollywood silver, you know, the sprawl, but with restaurants, uh, San Diego, you know, years ago when I would visit it, I thought of it as, you know, it's quite suburban and lovely and you got a little downtown, but really the past decade, you know, the area on Petco Park, the gas lamp, like it is hopping. And I think it's time to put a little respect on San Diego's name. And it's also time to, I think, imagine as we hopefully liberalize zoning in the coming years, just where a place like this can go. And San Diego, even more so to me than LA and San Francisco has a kind of a urban, like very urban area and very suburban area, like all the cities have. But like, to me, San Diego is, it's just very interesting to me, the mix of things here.

6:16 And I'm curious. Um, and, uh, and I do want to bring Gabrielle a second, but, uh, like, I, yeah, I'm just curious how you, I mean, those are very different demographics and different areas and that you have to win support in and, and sort of bring along for the journey. And I, I'm curious, I'm just curious your reflection on San Diego, what makes it unique and how you've, how you've dealt with this. Yeah. So what I think you're trying to get out is that San Diego has like villages that, you know, and that's very intentional, like the way, you know, our current, uh, mayor and previous electors have to kind of try to structure the city is like a city of villages. You have downtown, you have North park, you have bankers Hill, you have Hillcrest and, you know, more outside of that and trying to focus growth in those villages that are already like have the bones for a walkable community. Many of these villages were, you know, built around the streetcar back when that was a thing. And back when there was an extensive network of that. And so by default, you know, people already walk on them. They've already had like neighborhood level commercial, neighborhood level retail and restaurants. And so I think the city has done a really good job in building up those areas instead of trying to, you know, add more sprawl to the, you know, outlands. And so one way we avoid becoming LA is by growing our villages and not sprawling. So that's, that's one thing that I, I'm glad that you have observed. Nice. Uh, we'll bring in Assad, or Assad rather, Assad, Assad. So we'll talk about California in a second, but Gabriel, let's go to you. Um, yeah. Tell me about the global policy leadership academy and what is, what is your role in this?

7:38 How do you fit in? Well, I first want to actually piggyback off of that last topic because I do think San Diego, when we, I can't help but think about this every time we, our identity comes up as a, as a city is in comparison to LA and San Francisco. And I think that our YIMBY movement is happening at a time where San Diego is really ripe for an identity and an industry to take hold. We have some of the best research institutions in Southern California. And we have incredible biomedical work being done here and biotech. Um, so I feel like there's a lot changing about our little streetcar suburbs and our, you know, downtown that's, that's going through some growing pains. But, um, yeah, the work that I do at Global Policy Leadership Academy, um, we basically do consulting, convening, and education for local electeds, but that's also for, um, emerging leaders, existing leaders in the housing space, people who might be looking to get into housing and work in policy and others that are already doing that work, but want to learn best practices and stay sharp. And what's the, what's some of the things you're educating them on?

8:50 Well, it depends because we work with a lot of different regions. So we customize a lot of our education depending on the region. Um, and we have like our core curriculum, which is based on our five Ps framework, which is, um, really exciting. We're so, we're still, um, kind of further developing that out to, to be something that a lot of advocates and, uh, elected officials can use when they're analyzing policy and seeing what they want in their communities and what they need. Um, so I hope I answered that question almost, but don't think for a second, you can tell me there are five Ps and not tell us what they are. You know what? I'm glad you asked because we, we have been working on them and it's, it's actually building out from our three Ps. And I really hope I do this justice because it is, um, you know, it's not prescriptive, but it's really important to get the, the precision correct. So that one of the Ps. Precision. Yeah. No, it's, um, essentially it's produce housing for all. We're protecting tenants and, um, preventing displacement. There's produce, promote, uh, promote diversity, equity, and inclusion, uh, prevent displacement, protect tenants. We're trying to make it more scalable and trying to make sure that it's adapted to the current political climate as well so that you can get people across the aisle. Cause we do work with a lot of conservatives who are trying to figure out how they can participate in being part of the solution for housing, which is super important.

10:23 We can't, we can't do it all alone. We do work across the aisle a lot. So you mentioned conservatives, San Diego. Yeah. So San Diego, I mean, look, we're in California, but you have some, it's purple conservatives here. Let's tell me about how, how do the parties and they're, I mean, are they, are they very Trumpy conservatives? Are they just Californians who don't want to pay taxes? Like what's the landscape here? I'd say on that point, like, I think the meaning of the word conservative has like been lost. And if you look at the dictionary definition of conservative, like it's someone who wants things to stay the same and people who oppose change in their neighborhood, whether that be new housing, new restaurants, new stores, by definition are conservative, right? Now, you know, a conservative Democrat can exist. A liberal Republican can exist. They have exist before. And so I think we are probably going to reach a space very soon where we have these honest conversations. You know, I'm already seeing it in the environmental space, whether people, they're environmentalists who are very conservative in a sense, like we did just want to protect any piece of green space, but then there's a growing climate movement where it's like, yes, we want to protect the environment, but that also requires building housing, building transit. And that's inherently not conservative because you're building new things and you're introducing new infrastructure into the community. And so I think that San Diego is an interesting spot because people, you know, think they're not conservative because, you know, they have a lawn sign that says love is love and we welcome everybody. But if you don't actually build the housing to welcome in those new people, then it's kind of performative at the end of the day, you know? And so I'm looking forward to ripping off that bandit and saying, let's have an honest conversation about who's conservative and who's not.

12:06 Let's do it. Let's do it right now. I'm very, I'm very happy to beat this drum for a few reasons, right? I think for a while, a lot of us have been thinking, whether we've said it loudly or not, that like you simply cannot call yourself a progressive if you don't think the future can offer progress. If you don't like change, that is not a progressive attitude. That is a conservative attitude. Now, I think also like, look, I'm perfectly happy with the like my childhood definition of what a conservative is, which is like they don't like, they don't think the government should do stuff that'll mess it up, right? The, you know, don't, don't change tradition because you don't know what that glue is holding together. Uh, and of course, if you look at the modern Republican party, like it is irresponsible to call them conservative. They, they are, uh, reactionary, they are reactionary. If you want to tear down the global order, that is, if you want to repeal the 20th century, that is not, you cannot call it conservative. And as we said, if you want to keep, if you want to conserve your neighborhood, and by the way, conserve your privilege and your status, that is not progressive. I, I think if, uh, if, if people are intent on calling themselves progressive while, uh, being arch conservatives about their neighborhood, I would propose a, a portmanteau, which is, uh, preservatives, uh, which I think, uh, is both, they are trying to preserve things and also it sounds funny. Uh, and it should, it should mock them because that's a, it's, it's an attitude that I don't think you can properly hold in your head, those two things. And, uh, uh, and, and now I'll give, uh, anybody else a chance to rag on conservatives because I, I think they deserve it. I think to your point with the lawn signs that that has become a bigger conversation, certainly in my household, but also our circles. Um, because if you read any comment section on recent articles about, you know, SB 79 and anything about transit oriented development, you'll find people complaining about the lack of parking and they will have liberal, you know, liberal emojis in their Instagram bios or, or what have you. And then at the same time, advocate for, uh, advocate against policies, advocate against development that would make housing, make transit, every, everything more accessible and equitable to some of our most vulnerable populations. Um, which is always really interesting to me to see that, um, exist in one person. You know, I was, I was giving public comment at San Francisco not long ago. And, uh, when we came up to me and she said, Hey, so you said you were with the Yimby's, uh, do you really think this market rate housing is going to help? And I explained why. And then I said, but you know, but I also like believe the government should build public affordable housing so we can agree on that and work on that. And then she said, Ooh, you know, but when they do that, you know, they put two people from the same gang in the same building.

14:52 And then it was like, you're like, Oh, Oh, okay. You do want to critique me, but you actually don't want, you don't want anything. Yeah. And that's what I think about when people are like, Oh, I don't, you know, yeah, we need housing, but like it should go where it makes sense. Yeah. And you're like, all right, fine. Why don't we do infill housing in dense areas and near already existing transit stops where we're already serving like denser communities and people are like, Ooh, no, I meant nothing. When I said it where it makes sense, I meant Phoenix, not, uh, not California. You know what I mean? Like it is, is irresponsible. You work in both San Diego and statewide politics. I think you can probably weigh in here. Yeah. Well, I'll just comment first, like on the, the bad faith arguments that a lot of like NIMBY groups have where they kind of have a long list of requirements of like, Oh, it's not affordable enough. It's not enough parking. That's not close enough to transit. Doesn't have like, um, recently, um, what was it? The council member, uh, Padilla in, uh, LA was, um, like proud of, uh, reducing affordable housing from six stories to three stories to allow for EV chargers. And there's just like so many lists of requirements and just, uh, bad faith arguments that often really just come down to people don't want housing there. And I feel like a lot of times elected officials try to agree that those bad faith arguments are real arguments and, uh, trying to assuage those, uh, folks when at the core of it, it's these folks don't want housing near them. And we have to realize that there is a trade-off that there is probably some changes that are going to happen to your neighborhood. Um, but for the benefit of yourself as well, you want, you have your kids living near you. You want to have services that where people aren't commuting from two hours away. Um, it benefits both you and newcomers to your neighborhood as well. So I think that's something that I just find so mind boggling, but obviously your audience will be very familiar with these types of arguments.

16:49 Yeah. And it's not, I'm wondering from your perspective, how you would, uh, gauge and sort of handicap SB 79 right now. Like where, where's that in the process today? Where, what do you, what do you expect to happen next? Yeah, well, I'm hopeful. Well, when, when it depends on when this podcast will go live. I know I'm thinking that too. I know I got to turn around quickly then. So this is contemporaneous, but like, let's pretend, uh, let's pretend it goes out in the next week. Yeah. Yeah. What, where do you think things are at? I mean, I'm hopeful. I think there's definitely possibilities for it passing. Um, it's definitely been challenging compared to, you know, the state of Washington passed, uh, their own transit, uh, um, basically very simple bill similar to SB 79, where they allowed more homes near transit, but they even funded the affordable housing through property tax abatements. So, um, it was a more almost aggressive version one could argue, but, um, uh, a lot of folks have just been opposed to the crazy concept of, you know, we should build apartments near our infrastructure. Um, but I think we're, we're getting there. Um, we have lots of folks that are supportive and I feel like this is the year that we're finally starting to see the tide turn that there's more and more YIMBYs and showing up to lobby their, um, their legislators, more folks messaging and emailing and calling their legislators and just backlash against legislators and elected officials who oppose housing. We're kind of at this precipice where, um, it can't be the way that it was back in the 2010s. And, uh, I think that could lead to potentially some of these reforms passing. And when you see like, you know, uh, LA pass a completely non-binding, but just sort of resolution of like, eh, or like when you see, you know, John Lovett host a debate with, you know, with Scott Wiener and the NIMBYs get their asses handed to them. Does that stuff matter? Or is this us entertaining ourselves with theater while the actual negotiations happen? Yeah. Curious to get the other stakes, but, uh, I mean, I think it, there's two ways it matters and it doesn't matter, right? Like, uh, that council members, um, constituents probably aren't listening to Pod Save America. Maybe some of them are. Um, so it may not necessarily matter to her reelection and kind of like your specific provincial areas, but if you're trying to, you know, progress in your career as an elected official, there is these, uh, larger things that could make it harder for you to progress if you are, um, basically getting backlash. Who wants to support a candidate that's just getting pilloried and just, uh, um, you know, uh, um, mocked for their views that are like, quite frankly, regressive. You know, there's no Democrat should be proud of less affordable housing. I'm very curious actually for all of your takes on the question of the 2030 census. Um, and whether if, if that gets, I mean, it was just in the New York times, which is incredibly exciting. Cause one of my biggest priorities in this world right now is to make Democrats and please aware of this. And my theory there, you know, I think it is actually very natural to be a nimby, a nimby. I think it's very natural for one thing. It has been how things have been for 50 plus years, which means if you've been born in the last 50 years, that's the world you've grown up in. It's actually very difficult to share with people that the world you've grown up in is not the only world that has to be the case that there are other alternatives and that the choices that were made before you were born actually might not be good. That's actually very hard. It's also very natural and human to be afraid of change. It's changes the one thing that doesn't change. That's the one, like the most essential part of the human and existing conditions is that things change, but it's also very natural to not want change. So all of this is very natural.

20:28 And I think, you know, you get on the left, when we talk about left nimbies, I think nimby is a misnomer because nimby means not in my backyard. People that don't want you to build anywhere are not nimbies. They are de-growthers. A proper nimby is somebody who's like, oh yeah, no, you got to build. I would love to drive to that thing you built. I just don't want it near me. That's what a nimby is. I think there's a lot of people in California who are liberal nimbies because they're comfortable and they don't, and they're uncomfortable with things changing. That's very reasonable. I think something that they are, I don't think we're going to get them more comfortable with apartments, but I think we can get them more uncomfortable with the changes that will happen that they don't realize they're priced in. I think if you are scared of new apartments and you're a Democrat, you're probably more scared of fascists taking over the government for a generation. I think you weigh that more, right? I think all the, like you don't want new apartments in your area. You don't want new neighbors, but you really, really, really, really don't want MAGA to be the only people who can win elections in the 2030s. And I think if people understand that's the choice, they'll go, all right, fine. You know, I actually, not everybody, but I suspect there's quite a lot of Democrats who can prioritize that. One of them is a lot bigger of a deal.

21:36 And also it seems crazy to expect that anybody's going to care about a census, but we're in weird times. So I, I mean, I am kind of curious when we talk about the politics of both, I think Democrats in office who've assumed that nimbyism was what their constituents want and would be the popular position forever. And also Democrats who are sort of gently nimby, but not crazily invested in it, but basically prefer it to not, but, but are terrified of Trump. I mean, do you think if people understand that if we don't build now it's all over, like do you, I mean, do you think that matters at all? I think it's hard to make the connection, frankly, like it's, um, you have to kind of convince someone that building more housing near you will prevent, uh, the Joe Rogan, JD Vance presidency in 2032 or something like that. It's not an easy connection to make. Um, I think it make it like intuitively make, make sense to the, for those folks who are like deeply in the politics, who even understand redistricting, I think redistricting itself is like a, not something that a typical person who doesn't regularly pay attention to politics is fully aware of. So it's a difficult challenge to connect. I think it makes sense to like the types of folks who are, you know, the leaders of organizations and elected officials. Um, but obviously it will have an impact. But at the same time, it's kind of hard. There are economic forces that will just make Texas and the South grow faster. They have AC now they have built infrastructure. They have companies there with the way that clean energy is going. Texas quite literally has more land for wind and solar.

23:12 So that means that there's going to be more energy industry there. So there's some like fundamental quote unquote, secular dynamics. That means the South will have more jobs in the future. I think what's concerning is kind of what's happening in Texas that you might have this growth, but then you basically disenfranchise people, um, in blue cities from being able to voice their opinions. So complicated overall. And I think it's hard to kind of get across to the Haman voter that these, uh, denying housing could have, can, you know, lead to that JD Vance, um, Ron DeSantis presidency in the future. Um, but I think it is potential reality. Yeah. I'm going to go with the Carlson Bannon presidency is my prediction. Um, but I did, you know, it's, it is interesting to me, right? It seems very alien of a concept that like the population of States is a campaign concept. That's weird, but it is very much not without precedent in American history. It was kind of the biggest thing in the country for several decades, bad news before the civil war. I mean, that's all the competing of who would move where and to, in order to decide whether States were free States or slave States and people moved in order to decide people killed each other in order to decide whether States would be free States or, or slave States. That is bleeding. Kansas is terrifying. I'm very sorry to bring that up, but it is not without extreme precedent in American history. It is very weird to wrap our heads around, but so is everything. And we're seeing it now with Gavin Newsom trying to redistrict. He's bringing this into the conversation. Like we, if depending on how this goes, this will be a good case study. Cause if he wins this election, this redistricting, it shows that people are paying attention and that's just momentum to continue. You know, maybe he can shift that momentum into growing the population. We'll see where he takes it. But I think we're heading in a direction where States are caring about population and electoral votes in a way we haven't seen in the past few decades. And you know, governor Newsom did just come out and say, he doesn't think there's going to be a 2028 election. Really? Oh yes. He said that. 2020 or 2028. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's been the, a campaign strategy for a long time is this moral call to action that we're, our democracy is at risk. We've, we've definitely been banging that drum for a long time, but to tie it to housing and our population that we, we need as a, as a large state that has so many economic drivers and we need to be able to solve this housing crisis in order to maintain our, our local economies and our communities, it's essential. Um, and I do think, you know, when you talk about change, I've had this working theory that I still need to flesh out, but I, I'm not sure that people fear change that we've said that and thought that for so long. And I've thought that too, but the more I've interacted with people who have this deep opposition with, um, not a lot of conviction behind their, their arguments is really not the fear of change, but the fear of this perceived loss that they're going to experience as a result of these changes, because they actually want a lot of changes. We saw that with so many people voting for Trump and having a lot of, uh, people staying home, uh, during elections in the past, Democrats are, our party is notorious for, um, kind of struggling to get out there, especially young voters. We've been really relying on this concept of young voters getting out there to be really progressive. And I think that there was some disappointments around Gen Z not voting the way we thought they would. And I do think that the perceived, like we need to work on that perceived loss of all that you'll experience and have as a result of this growth coming into your neighborhood. And it's not, yeah, you might lose a parking spot, but you're going to gain a more interesting, useful, purposeful experience when you live your life.

27:13 I love that framing. I mean, people, because people, people clearly like report wanting change, but yeah, this fear of loss and fear is a very powerful motivator. So we can back down a little bit from the partisan fire brandery, lest we transition into thousand yard stairs, all of us, but, but each of you have a role in, in educating folks and, and genuinely specifically educating elected officials, right? That is your job is to like educate elected officials. You're clearly mobilizing and bringing along allies in San Diego. You do this work in San Diego and nationally. And I'm curious for each of you, I mean, just tell me about educating elected officials, right? Tell me about, I mean, the different types of people you talk to, the different tactics you have to use, different experiences you've had. Like, what is it like to bring people along for this ride? How gently do you have to start? How much do you have to go from 101 to 201 to 301?

27:59 And again, we can start with, with you. I'm just curious about your experience educating folks. Yeah. I mean, the work that I do, we, we aren't exclusive to Democrats or Republicans. We will welcome anyone who wants to learn about housing and homelessness policy. Um, and I think that there's an element of not alienating people trying to make information highly accessible and usable. And elected officials are busy people who don't have a ton of time to learn the ins and outs of every single policy. So we rely on researchers, analysts who, who can help make that digestible and tactical for them. Um, because as yeah, I think all of us know, it's really hard to get in the same room as some of our local electeds who are trying to do a lot. They have so many fires to, to put out. And a lot of times they're in kind of a pickle. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't, especially when it comes to housing, cause they're afraid of their constituents. The most vocal constituents are usually the people who don't want any development at all and will not, they'll show up to every city council hearing and they'll show up to every community, uh, planning group meeting and they stay on message and they're pretty relentless. So they're trying to navigate that. And I think it's our job to help show all of the will, the political will that is behind them if they put forth really good policy.

29:24 Yeah, I definitely agree on the showing support part. I think a lot of the elected officials, especially here in San Diego, like in the city and the County, like do recognize the value of building more housing and, you know, they can even tell you in closed door, like, you know, I, I would like to vote for this or I'd like to see this happen, but you know, there's these constituents concerns that I have to address. And, you know, I think that to me that communicates, well, we need to show that there's more support than opposition to these things. Um, that's like what my, my goal is, you know, trying to build that supporter base, trying to build that presence on multiple channels and get the, get the word out there that, Hey, there's a lot of people who support this. Um, and we have your back. Yeah. I think a lot of elected officials already recognize, like they understand the facts of it, of how more housing benefits folks, um, creates more competition, reduces prices. Um, I think the challenge for them as many and, uh, Gabrielle have said is the, just the political aspect of it, that even if they understand the facts, there could be political, uh, constituencies that are, um, regularly showing up to city council meetings to oppose them. So I think that's kind of like the, the big challenge is less of like the, the truth. The truth is there and most of them recognize the truth. It's, uh, getting them to vote on the truth, I think is challenging. Um, and then there's some elected officials who kind of like dig in their heels and just generally don't think there's a role for housing, uh, market rate housing. Uh, I think those ones are harder to change because they've kind of already dug in their heels and they believe it so resolutely. Um, but it's important to, you know, meet the other elected officials where they are. And then also kind of like the next generation, which is why like global policy leadership academy is important is that there's some folks who kind of like have this intuitive framing of like home builders equals bad. It's just like in their brain that those two things are connected. But once you educate people that, okay, uh, uh, exclusionary zoning has roots in segregation. There's no reason that a single unit detached home can't sit next to apartments and starting to educate them on that. And they realize, oh, the problem isn't that we are building homes that the problem is, or the problem isn't that we're, um, yeah, building homes. It's that we're not building enough. So I think there's that kind of aspect of educating the next generation and getting these people who are kind of aware of the issue, um, and making sure that they come onto the side of YIMBYs. Yeah. When you, uh, think about some of the folks you mentioned and, uh, some of the folks who are kind of, they get, they get the idea. Right. Um, and I don't want you to name names. Don't want to get anybody in trouble here, but do you reckon that's folks who are like, look, your math makes sense. It's just not appropriate in my district or folks who are like, look, the math makes sense. This would be good for my district, but if I vote for this, I'm going to get fired. And the person who replaces me is going to be worse for you and worse for my constituents. Is it? I've had both. Yeah. Yeah. Um, cause there is, and then you get the little, you get a little good cop, bad cop, right? Which is, which is where you need the YIMBY laws of the world. So people can be like, look, I hate these YIMBYs. They're going to ruin the neighborhood, but they're going to sue us. So if we don't, we have to do what they say or it's going to be worse. I'm the good guy here. I'm protecting you. Not like these assholes.

32:42 Thank you for the letter. But you know what I mean? Like that you do. Yeah. There's some, there's some, I think, secret closet YIMBYs that have to kind of play the NIMBY card and like, they blame the state. Oh, the state's putting out these mandates. They're going to sue us, but they like secretly know that there needs to be more housing. Um, Encinitas, the only reason it has built, so Encinitas is a very wealthy city. I used to say one of the wealthiest cities in San Diego County, but realistically, if you're a wealthy city in San Diego County in California, you're also one of the wealthiest cities in the world. Uh, so one of the wealthiest cities in the world, the only way that they could get them to build more housing is the state law and state requirements. So every city council meeting basically just becomes like, we don't want to approve this, but if we don't, then the state will, um, uh, sue us or the state will mandate more. Uh, so it's a great lever to have state law for those local council members who may be reluctant to otherwise approve it because of political backlash. You're saying we need the stick, not just the carrot. Exactly. Yeah.

33:46 You know, I was in a, we're going to, we're going to bring this too close pretty soon, but I was in LA recently and I asked folks, you know, who's, who's kicking ass in office or running for office that people should know about. And then a week later, like three of them put out spectacular viral videos. So maybe we can recreate that. No, my question is, you know, in, in San Diego, uh, whether it's folks in office who've been in office, who are running for office, like who rocks, who should nationwide, like Yimby's and abundance minded folks be, be paying attention to supporting and excited about. Yeah. Well, obviously, you know, the special guest you'll be having later today, Scott Peters, representative Scott Peters, Congressman, you know, we just gave him an award at our soiree. Very great. Um, we also have some wonderful local legislators like this. Let me remember Chris Ward who's been absolutely fantastic and putting out some very smart housing bills. Pass it on to solder. Um, Gabrielle.

34:32 I mean, I would double down on Chris Ward. My organization has worked with him. He actually attended one of our, um, our Vienna social housing field study where we take, um, progressive like housers and, uh, electeds to Vienna to study their social housing model. Um, and I think he, he's done amazing work. I think Sean Elo Rivera, our city council member has done amazing work as well in trying to make sure we're not catering to tourists that we're making San Diego a livable city for people who live here. Um, so I appreciate that. Yeah. I'll pick you, but yeah, again, assembly member award, definitely a great pro housing, uh, assembly member, just his recent bill, like I think it's AB six, just, uh, the, the residential code right now. Um, let me explain the building code. So that's like kind of like the requirements for how a building should be made and like the inspections and like the different types of requirements for it. Um, the same laws apply for even like small residential units. You have to use a commercial code once it's like 10, uh, even just above one unit. So a duplex or, you know, 10 units, even though they may be the same size as like a mansion, what suddenly has to use a commercial code, which is designed for like malls and offices, which can just raise the expense of creating that type of housing, even though it's not functionally like a commercial type of housing or a commercial type of development. So he's relaxing or looking for ways to, you know, use the right size code for the right size development. So definitely want to shout out to assembly member award, but yeah, also our local elected officials, um, council member, Sean Yolo Rivera, who love, who does a great job of balancing the line of just, you know, we need to make sure we're not displacing folks, but also we're building housing. Uh, I think is a great example of like our progressive housing champion. Um, and then let's give it, I'll give a shout out to mayor Gloria. I mean, this is look, I don't want to set you guys up to be backstabbed later by anybody who you speak nicely of who then doesn't vote for step later, but like, let's get you your chits, right? Like let's like shout it out. And I do think, uh, yeah, mayor Gloria has done a, no, he's been taken the absolute biggest policy on every single issue.

36:43 And like, he still wakes up every morning. It's like, I'm going to build more housing today, you know, and I'm like, I respect that. Cause you know, if I was just facing a fraction of the, you know, the, you know, misguided opposition that he's facing, I don't know if I could, you know, wake up every morning and keep doing that work. So I really respect that, you know, he's like an unwavering champion and fighter for housing. Yeah. Just to like even like further drill down on that. Like if we compare the cities, uh, on who endorsed SB 79, it was the mayor's office of the city of San Diego that endorsed SB 79. Meanwhile, you have the city of Los Angeles, like coming out against SB 79. So who was the first mayor loved the largest city in California to come out in support of more housing near transit mayor Gloria. And if you have other look at other cities, they often say like, Oh, interest rates, we can't build more housing. San Diego has increased its number of permits. Um, it used to be 5,000 or so now we're doing 9,000, 8,000. So it's not interest rates. You can actually create programs that spur more housing. He also had the, uh, faster permitting, um, 30 days for affordable housing, um, expanded the planning staff and development services. So you can have faster permitting over there in LA mayor Bass, considered like cutting the planning department staff for their budget cuts. I think city council pushed back on that, but this is a mayor that has constantly supported more housing and, um, even there's this very, uh, uh, uh, law called SB 10, which would have allowed more housing in, um, typical single family, a single unit detached home neighborhoods. And this was the mayor's office and the planning department that wanted to have this law. No other big city even tried to do it because they were just too catering towards the, um, typical, uh, NIMBY constituency. So this is a mayor that has, you know, constantly been on the forefront of building more housing. And I feel like we should definitely get more attention on mayor Gloria for supporting more housing. Don't necessarily agree with all of his policies. Of course, no politician do I. Um, but I think there is this, uh, attitude to focus on San Francisco and LA and San Diego is, there's only one social account of, uh, of elected official or a mayor that says build more housing. Uh, and that's mayor Gloria. Yeah. Yeah. Very nice. Very nice. Look, all of you get one pithy final thought, something people should learn from San Diego, something that's on your mind, uh, something you want to shout out could literally be anything. I just want to give you the opportunity. Something I didn't ask you about one pithy final thought from, uh, from all of you and then we'll bring it home. Yeah. Thank you for having us over. If you're in San Diego, definitely come by, stop, say hi, and check out sunset cliffs before it falls into the ocean.

39:24 Pithy. Oh, I don't know. San Diego. Yeah. I think we're just evolving. I think people have this older vision of what San Diego used to be, um, like 20 or 30 years ago, sleepy and suburban. I think now we're urbanizing significantly. Um, our neighborhoods are definitely more lively. You have the, uh, uh, thriving benefits of a city and you also have that relaxed beach attitude as well. Um, we just have to up the height limits in some of those beach neighborhoods. Nice. Yeah. I think, you know, San Diego has Balboa park and that's our really our crown jewel. And I think of, if you're going to come to San Diego, you should walk around Balboa park. It's our like mini Spain and enjoy, enjoy all the things that San Diego has to offer. Um, which is a lot of walkable neighborhoods and some of the best tacos, burritos, smoothies, whatever that you can find in Southern California. And you put French fries in your burritos. Yeah. Yeah, we do that. Um, no, I like that all three of you did, uh, postcards from San Diego tourist promotion as your final, uh, you guys must like it here. You're part of the fabric. Can't call you, uh, corporate shield transplants. You're promoting San Diego. I love it. No, uh, this was so fun. Uh, and thank you for sharing all this knowledge and reflections and all of your different perspectives. Uh, thank you, uh, to Manny Rodriguez of Yimby Democrats of San Diego County to Sada Sade of Yimby Democrats of San Diego County and Gabrielle Worvey of the Global Policy Leadership Academy.

40:53 Thank you all of you for being here today. Uh, for each of you, my name is Steve Boyle and thank you for being here and listening to us, uh, on Radio Abundance, uh, in studio in person from San Diego. Thanks for being with us. You've been listening to Radio Abundance by Yimby Democrats for America. Join us at the first ever festival of Progressive Abundance coming up on Friday, January 30th to Sunday, February 1st in Los Angeles. Get tickets today at progressiveabundance.com. We'll see you next time.