Transcript
0:00 Hello, and welcome to Radio Abundance. I am your host, Steve Boyle, the Executive Director of YIMBY Democrats for America. This is a very special episode of Radio Abundance. It is the second in a series where we are in San Diego and talking to some folks from an organization called Lived Experience Advisors who've spent time on the streets. And we wanted to hear a little bit about that experience from people who've actually lived it. We spent a lot of time here talking about the policy and the implications, both of what you're doing. What is creating this crisis and what to do about it. But we feel like there's not enough voices from people who've lived it. So today we are here with Natalie and Vanessa. Natalie, you had reached out to me and I think we've been fast friends ever since. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what Lived Experience at Advisors is, and we can go from there.
0:54 My name is Natalie. I lived homeless with my husband and my four children for about two and a half years. The first, I would say, two years was in an RV. We roamed around, received an extreme amount of tickets. I wish I would have brought them. We spent, we would spend nights in hotels to give the kids a break. And we woke up one morning from San Diego Hotel and everything was gone. Our home was gone. Gone. So we were literally homeless, homeless. When we had the RV, we didn't feel as if we were, you know, homeless. Because that's, you know, it's just, you know, one step up. But after we woke up and everything was gone. Everything.
1:42 They had school the next day. So we did that for about two and a half years. The last part of our stint of homelessness was in a van. Six people in a van.
1:53 All family members? Yes. My husband and my four children and me. It isn't interesting, I think, to think about that experience as, I mean, it's not binary, right? It's not like you are either in an apartment or on the street. Like, as you said, you can, sometimes you might be back and forth between apartments and the streets. You might be moving between people you know who let you stay for a night and the streets. You might be in a van or a car or an RV. Maybe you got enough for a hotel for one night. Maybe it's a little nicer and it's like a break for the kids. Maybe it's like the horrible and you're like, we should have been outside, you know. And it also, I mean, the experience of getting the tickets really, I think, is, I mean, the poverty is so expensive. Right? Like, to have no money is to owe money. And that, I mean, what a miserable situation. I just think that's really interesting.
2:45 And we would, every time we received a ticket in the city of San Diego, it reads on the ticket, if you don't pay it in 21 days, it will go up. We were at one point getting a ticket every two and a half weeks, so I felt we were being harassed.
3:04 That's how I felt. We would try to explain, like, you know, look, I have nowhere to go. I have nowhere to park this thing. Once you become homeless, as you were saying, the choices become slimmer and slimmer and slimmer on what options you have and what you're going to do. So every time we received a ticket, I would say, look, this is not helping me. I have so many tickets, so many, that they towed, that was the last asset that I had, was that RV.
3:41 The word harass is really interesting to me in the sense of, you know, I don't know your experience, I can't judge, but, like, regardless of whether, like, a person or an agency is meaning to harass you, the idea that just to be dealing with those conditions is to feel, I think, directly and personally, in a targeted way, harassed quite all the time. And what I mean by that is, I mean, like, of course, I know and talk to all the time people, people live in cities, people live in the suburbs, who are like, oh, I don't want that van near me that gives me the heebie-jeebies, right? I'm not saying that's not a reasonable thing to think, but if your only option is to live in that van and everybody else thinks that's a reasonable thing, which it might be, but, like, that is every day. That is every moment. At any moment, like, this is, for somebody to be like, I don't want that near me, I'm going to call, like, that's, like, a one moment in their life.
4:30 For you, it is around the clock. And that just sounds devastating to me. Well, on the last episode, John brought up what we're asking people to do or what we're going through. I became very afraid for my husband. I became afraid for his own self and for other people's safety. Because you are pushed to a limit mentally that really, it's almost indescribable. And the fear that I had for him being pushed to a limit that he was either going to hurt somebody because of what you say, like, is harassment from...
5:20 It could have been a look. He was that close to snapping.
5:27 That's scary. That's scary. And you have children. And so when police and people are doing these...
5:36 Maybe they don't even notice that they're doing them sometimes when they walk by and have this look. We know what that look is.
5:45 You do something to that person. And it scars them a little bit. And when you have children in tow, let me tell you what that will do to a man. And you don't hear about that very often. And I became very afraid.
6:01 And so that's when I started really fighting back.
6:05 You know, and I have many follow-up questions as an insane moment to segue away from you, but we do need... Come on, begin with it. I did one. And, you know, we were going to do this a few weeks earlier. And we had to reschedule because I was flying back to the U.S. from London. And on a layover in Miami, the flight was delayed past midnight. This is all normal so far. Ooh, he's talking about... We're talking about homelessness, and he's talking about flights that are delayed. But, you know, it's a situation where the flight's delayed past midnight. The airline owes you a rebooking. They actually owe you a hotel that night. They owe you a shuttle. You know, yeah, you got to wait in line for two hours for it, but whatever. What are you going to do? So I'm there, and I wait in line for two hours, and I get to the counter. And they gave me a meal voucher. And I was like, oh, I actually want the hotel and the rebook. And they started to very, very, very aggressively tell me that wasn't...
6:52 You know, and then I'm like, oh, well, actually, can I show you Department of Transportation Law? Can I show you your own American Airlines conditions of carriage? And they start screaming. And then, you know, I went away to, like, check it, and I came back, and they were threatening... They were, like, they had called the cops on other passengers in the same situation and were, like, at the precipice of harassing them. I was like, hey, I just checked this. Can we take a look at this together? And they, like... And they were like, no, and if you don't leave in a second, they're going to arrest you. It was infuriating and almost... And you have to, like, keep the Zen philosophy in your mind not to be deprogrammed. And I bring this up because we were talking. That is the experience around the clock, right? Of, like, it is, like, injustice by people who have power. And in this case, genuinely state violence enforcing ignorance and lawlessness.
7:38 And, I mean, the idea that someone would snap and the idea of being with somebody who might snap, it's, I mean, like, that could happen to anyone. And I'm so sorry you went. Your turn. You know, when you talk about, you were looking up, you know, well, it says right here, that's one thing that got me to really know what my rights were.
8:05 And I was going, I would be damned if they were going to tell me.
8:11 Because if you don't know, they'll tell you whatever they want. They will tell you whatever they want. And then even when you do know, like you were saying, they'll still try to make you back down. And it's very passive aggressive. And it's almost, like, you don't really know what you're talking about. Even though you show them proof, you, no. Because they do have that little bit of power, you know. And they abuse that. A lot of people abuse it.
8:45 Hi. Hi. Tell us about yourself. Well, just so you know, I'm Natalie's friend. No, my name is Vanessa Graziano, and I grew up in L.A., but I moved to San Diego when I was 13. So I struggled with homelessness with my daughter back in 2014 and addiction. I got sober in 2015.
9:09 CPS did step in. My mom, thank God, took her. So I didn't have to have her in the system because that was very, you know, system. That's a whole nother conversation. So, but when I got out of rehab in 2015, I really wanted to make a difference. When I was out there with my daughter, growing up, I sang and I did a lot. And so I had a purpose. And so in my early 30s, I got divorced. And what I didn't realize is a lot of trauma set in, deeply rooted trauma that led to addiction, that led to not being able to cope on my own, right? And so I didn't realize that. And so I got into drugs and then again, I got sober in 2015. So in coming out of that, I really wanted to make a difference. So I started a nonprofit in 2020 during COVID.
9:54 I opened up one of the only shelters in Oceanside at the time and really just started implementing my lived experience of being out there with my daughter, meeting people where they're at, knowing they're the expert of their lives. They know what they need, you know, and meeting them and walking alongside of them. And so I got to really do this for about four years. And then I became a substance use counselor where I graduated. I really wanted that. I manifested that. I really believe your words have power and that you can truly transform your struggles into purpose. And so, you know, from that, I just went into that. And then I got a call from the Regional Task Force on Homelessness. And I work for them now. And I've been working for them for the last year. And right now, we're really moving people off the streets and into housing. So it's really like hope into housing.
10:40 And not just that, you know, for me and our lived experience, it's really about the enhanced supportive services and housing retention that goes after, right? Because a lot of these people that are on the streets, and you know, the thing about it is, and you know, people generalize, but these people want homes just like us. They want to be able to lock their door. They want to be able to know that they can heal. They want to get back into the things they used to love. The majority of them are seniors, you know, they want to have community. A lot of them are artists, and they want to get back into art classes or dance classes. We have one lady, you know, so, you know, just like you and me that have just not been able to create the pathways of healings that are needed, right? And so that's what I do today. I'm really fortunate to be with lived experience advisors. My kids now are 16, 22, and 24, you know, so it's been about 10 years since I've been out there, but I'm in the sector all the time, yeah.
11:28 Well, you know, she was, you know, saying what kind of led her to becoming homeless. We didn't have that same experience. COVID happened. Yeah. So it wasn't something that I, you know, necessarily did. I'm a college graduate. We're both collegiate athletes. I didn't, you, life happens. Yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden you're making choices that you, you didn't think you're ever going to have to make, and you're trying to make the best choice, but sometimes that best choice turns out to be a bad choice. Yeah. It really does. And so we invested in something, and it just fell through. And so then you find yourself homeless, you know, and, and who wants to ask, can my six people, you know, stay with you?
12:21 And it's COVID. So. And just like she said, I mean, there's so many avenues to homelessness, you know, and I think we have to remember that everybody is, is literally having their own stories that led them out there. A lot of it is trauma that's just unhealed and like a tumbleweed that just goes into your life and gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And you don't even know that or realize like, wow, this is happening because of something that happened that I just couldn't take care of. Right. And so, you know, when you meet people out there, because a lot, like you said, people don't stop. They don't say, Hey, maybe I can help that person that's over there. The more, it's just like a, Oh, I'm going to stay away. But if you stop and talk to them, you'll notice there are really a lot of great people out there. I mean, even just recently I started doing this encampment resolution in lemon grove and, you know, we're out there for the last three or four weeks and we've gotten to know every single person in where we're working and they're amazing.
13:11 They're seniors, they're families, they're individuals that all want housing. They want to work together. Do some of them have substance use? Do some of them have mental behavioral? Absolutely. But that's something that we can grow together when we meet them where they're at and we let them know like we care and we're going to connect here and we're going to keep showing up. And that's what all of us want. We want community and love, right? You've segued to this moment, the moment of becoming homeless, right? And I would say that like months beforehand, right? Because so far we've talked about a little bit of that experience, which is harrowing, but we knew that. Everybody listening knew that. I think what's really interesting and I think the listeners of this program know that and it's what drives us is how easy it is for that to happen, right? You just have to not be able to pay rent and not have somebody who will put you up, right?
13:57 So we are going to get into that in a second, but I did want to say something because I walked John out a moment ago. So this is our second episode in the series. And our first one we had John who I think runs lived experience advisors. Yeah. And he's just here for our first one because he's having a really emotional day. And in that first episode he talked about a roommate of his who both of them had been on the street who passed away today. And as we were walking out, I think two things came up, right? So one is you might have heard me say the word roommate, which is say he's not homeless now. So why are we talking about this? Well, if you spent the stat John gave me, I haven't fact checked in the last 10 minutes, but the stat John gave me, which is very believable, I think, is, you know, if you spend time on the street, even if you stop spending time on the street, it on an average cuts off about 27 years of your life, right?
14:49 That I like it, it's, you know, it's like smoky, smoke real hard for a while and then you quit. Yeah. It's cumulative. You know what I mean? Like that catches up with you. And I think the second thing was, and John was talking about this and he was, and he was pointing out that it's not, it's not about drugs. It's about other things, right? It was partially about drugs. We're not saying people don't take drugs. And that really stood out to me for two reasons, right? One is, so, you know, I'm kind of, I lived in San Francisco for the last decade. I'm from the Bay Area, right? Okay. People talk all the time about drug tourism. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but at least a couple of years ago, pretty glaring stat, most of the people who are unhoused in San Francisco were people who had lived in San Francisco, rented an apartment, had a job in San Francisco, and then didn't have an apartment anymore, right? It's not people who came into town to do fentanyl, it's people who lived there and couldn't afford it. And I, the drugs, while we are recording this, it is Burning Man.
15:37 Drugs are not a class thing. Drugs are not something homeless people do. Every demographic does drugs. And the people in San Francisco, by the way, it's fine, but the people in San Francisco who complain the most about people on the streets doing drugs and are the loudest about it online, I promise you, half those people do a lot of drugs. They just have a nice place to do it in. That's right. And they can get soft pillows and nice robes. Lights and the whole thing, right? Absolutely. And I did some, I did a little fact checking myself recently because of the whole homeless and criminals, right? Well, 9% of people that go into our state and federal prisons are homeless. The rest are housed. Okay. So 9%, 9% are, and the ones that are criminals, the majority are because of the tickets that became into bench warrants that made them now have warrants that they have to go to jail for, you know, or a misdemeanor, you know?
16:32 So, I mean, you know, I had a misdemeanor back in 2013. I am definitely not a criminal, but I was stuck in some hard situations. I was making bad choices, some of my own, some taken away from me, but the one choice I had was to heal, right? And so that's what we're talking about. I was like, we're housed, you know, because we were able to rise above the system that is broken. It is. You know, and when you say that, I, I, the most I've ever had is a cell phone ticket. Um, they, when you get those, they annihilated my credit. Yeah. Oh yeah. The longer you're unhoused, the worse that gets. And then you, when you start to fill out these applications and, you know, my husband was working after everything opened back up, but I can't go to work and leave four kids, um, in a van or, you know, they're all schools open back up.
17:23 So I'm homeless with three kids at three different schools. Try doing that. Try doing that and have people, um, gaslight you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's really, it's, um. Generalized. I mean, that's the thing is, it's just like, oh, all homeless. No, no, not all homeless people are all the same. You know, all of us have dreams and aspirations and things that we want families that we can't just leave at a shelter. Like no way. When I was out there with my daughter, you would not get me to go to a shelter and stay there because there's different mannerisms and behaviors and different things. And guess what? Just because I'm homeless doesn't mean I don't have more where I'm at. Well, I'm not a dog and I'm not going to just take your scraps. Just take anything that you give me. And these things aren't set up. These shelters to help you really grow.
18:08 Here's 30 days. You got to leave at five in the morning. You come back at seven. What are you talking about? Where are the groups and the providers and in between? Why are you kicking these people out? You got to keep them there. You got to help them grow. You got to bring in people like us, providers, resources to get them to realize that they matter enough that you're not going to kick them out and make them. What are they doing all day? And you know, when you talk about the drug thing and the disability, I came from a good home. You know, I had two parents that always told me, you know, how amazing I was. I could do anything. And that was super helpful going through that. But as I become housed, I realized from all that time being on the street, now I do have these disabilities that I never had.
18:58 Yeah. I cannot seem to get certain things together yet.
19:04 And you just got housed too, right? You got housed about two years ago, two and a half years ago, three years. I've been housed 10. So, you know, it takes a moment, you know, and I even run apartments now and I've moved a couple of our families that I ran my program in to one of our apartment complexes right next door to me two years ago, a lady with three kids. And the first year, like it, it was very difficult for her to reacclimate. And thankfully she had me next door and my daughter where we'd come over and we're friends, friends, program manager, program, you know, property manager, you know, just trying to do it all together. Right. But, but we're friends now. Tomorrow, Jasper's birthday, you know, we're having jumpies, you know, she's still there. She's housed, but it took her a year to get all those paperwork, everything settled to figure out how to get her house in order. And now she has a job for the last year, you know, and it's just people deserve like.
19:51 It's time. It takes time. And that segue, I'm going to segue just for quite a second. So I have an emergency housing voucher. I just don't want to get this, um, this big, beautiful bill, this cut, um, has now cut that voucher. So one more year, right? I have, I have by this time next fall, that voucher will be gone. So I'm looking at. And that, and what, and what a stress thing that you have to think now, because, you know, as humans, we do worry, even though we're supposed to stay right here, right now, we worry about things, even though we're learning not to, and to be present and to grow, we still worry and have to worry that, no, that your voucher might be gone. You might be back out on the streets. It's like, I don't have that worry. I don't today, you know, and I, and, but we're good friends, you know? And so for me to know that, that I don't want her to worry about that, that she shouldn't have to worry about that.
20:41 She's doing it. She's amazing. Her kids are incredible. They shouldn't have to worry about that. It breaks my heart. They shouldn't have to think. And the thing is they're there with mom. So they probably know too that their voucher is going to run out in a year because it's around. It breaks my heart really. Well, and, and I feel like we're being, I'm being punished for something I didn't even do. So, yeah.
21:03 Speaking of the voucher, right, for example, and, and, you know, I think in our, and I think in our third and final of our, of our trilogy, we'll talk a little bit about both the sort of six month journey of maybe becoming home. I have questions. And as well as the healing, I think it's really interesting to put the journey out. But so, you know, let's be unconventional. Start in the middle, right? Let's start in the middle. So you are, you know, you're in RV, you're honest, you don't have an apartment. Let's start, you know. And so, uh, you brought up shelters earlier.
21:30 You know, I'm, I'm curious, like in, in that moment we were like, okay, fuck, I don't have a place to live. Like, uh, A, were there other, a shelter, a private or a government or a church? B, how did you, you know, what was the process of finding that out? Is it something you knew to begin with? And then the big question is like, did you, did you go? Did you try it? Did it, was it nice? Did you hate it? Was it nice, but then they kicked you out? Did other people on the street say, don't go there? That place sucks and is worse than being out? Like what is, what options were there? Yeah. And what are they like? Well, for, with, um, a husband and a wife and four kids, none. Yeah. Really? None. Yeah. There's none. And we were offered this place, um, in El Cajon, which is, you know, a little, it's not close to where my kids go to school.
22:17 Um, they offered, um, they offered us a room, but we couldn't have a toaster. We couldn't make our own food. We, it was on the other side of a rehab, but the adults weren't supposed to mingle with the, the family side. You know, these are people that are doing their own part in rehab and were, so it was an old hotel.
22:43 It was not acceptable for me. And you're guilt shamed. You are guilt shamed by people that work sometimes in the system, um, guilt shamed because I rather live in my van than live how they were asking me to live. And it's not even in your van. You'd rather know that you can protect your kids and your family. And in the van, that's where you have the space even to do that, right? In a way placed on rules for behaviors that I've never had a problem with because I can't have a toaster because, uh, um, I might burn down the building. Right. So no, I'm sorry. That is not acceptable to me and I'm not going to feel bad and you shouldn't be making me feel bad about that.
23:34 Um, I'd rather have people, if we want to talk about experience a little bit of being homeless, um, you know, I think I was mentioning to you the headlights. Yes. People would park next to us because we stopped moving. I stopped running and I stayed parked in the same spot because I had to get my kids to school. Your RV? No, van. But at this point it was just a van. Six of us. And you're parking in the same spot. Yeah. Okay. Um, where there was bathrooms that I could lock the door. That's right. They could have their own stall. You have a- Which they deserve. Right. You have a daughter. My daughter started her menstrual cycle. Yeah. Yeah. On, while you were living on the street. Yep. Yeah. What were the bathrooms? Um, where were they? I mean, what, what were they? These bathrooms? They, well, it's at a park, a local park in San Diego, Crown Point. Yep. Um, they had locking stalls, individual stalls.
24:22 Um, they had showers. Open all night? Unlocked all night? Yes. Yeah. I'm not asking you to get up every secret, but just to paint the picture. No, yeah. I'm trying to- That's why, that's why we specifically stayed there. Yeah. Um, they, that was the only, I think really the only one really, um, that I knew of. And so we would stop, we stopped moving. They would lock us in. They would give us tickets. Um, people would park next to us two slots down and leave their headlights on us. Bright lights. Just because. And also I'm trying, you can't put your kids down to bed, even though we have the curtains. Um, we're still, you know, we're, we're part of the, the outside, um, what's it called? I don't know what the word I'm looking for.
25:07 The, um, the elements. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The elements. So if people are having bonfires or people want to park and put their flashlight, headlights on us, what are we supposed to do? You know, I can't put them to bed. I don't get to read them a book. There's no, how do you get up and go to school the next day and concentrate? And people thought it was okay to leave their headlights on us. That's when I really started becoming afraid for my husband because it, he was, had had enough. He'd had enough. People are being pushed. You're pushed to a limit. I can't even. It's so true. Put into words. You cannot put into words and then no sleep. And then you talk about these paperwork. It's call this number.
25:53 When you're first homeless, you don't know what to do. You learn by other people. But 2-1-1, there's no system that is actually, to me, functioning the way it should be that can help these people not add on to their stress. You stop calling. You stop showing up. You stop filling out papers because the letdown and the stress becomes so overwhelming. I'd rather just sit here and figure it out by myself. Whether I'll figure it out, I don't know. But it's better than doing what they're having you do, running in circles, trying to keep your phone charged, trying to make this appointment, trying to keep paperwork, trying to keep paperwork.
26:38 Keeping the paperwork. And, you know, now they have some really good, I mean, there are some, which I hear, you know, but there is this place that we've been using, Think Dignity, which has been really great. They've been coming in and getting that paperwork and putting it in their own systems because we're trying, like, you're right. I mean, the paperwork gets lost all the time. Like, we have to have a better system so people have a way where they can have it somewhere where they can always access it because you can't keep anything. You're running around, you're tired, you're survival mode. There's just something about, like, you always are losing something because you're moving all the time. You're not getting full sleep. Your brain is not functioning on a level that's normal. Mm-mm, it's not. Even if you're not using. Even if, no. Even if you're not using. That is using. I don't think it's a drug to not sleep and not have a charged phone and not be able to find, and, like, yeah, of course, that is the same, that is physical transformation and altered states of conscience.
27:28 That is what that is. And when people see that, they're like, oh, those people are on drugs. No, they probably haven't slept for five days because they're trying to stay safe. Yeah. And they have certain things, and every time they fall asleep, guess what happens? It gets stolen. And that's real. Even if you have someone right next to you that's watching your stuff, don't think that. You're, you know, this is, it's tough out there, and nobody that's been out there that has these judgments, they need to understand, like, you've got to open your heart here. This is a human. This is something, like, everybody can be one or two steps in this country today close to being homeless. Well, and I realized watching, and I observed a lot, you, I started to realize these people that you see out there acting out in these behaviors that you automatically think they're on drugs, or they're just talking to themselves, or having these big moments, I started to realize these people are reverting back to childlike states.
28:21 Nobody cares, nobody cares, they're, it's like a child getting negative attention, but it's attention. And you're watching adults do it, and people can't understand, it's just like, they just want to gaslight, or say it's one, one thing or another. No, they're breaking down. They're breaking down. And it's... I've seen a lot of that, you know, where you, people, like, they're just amazing, they're amazing, and you just see the breakdown as they're out on the streets more, and then they'll get housed, and they're feeling a little better, or they'll get a shelter for, like, 30 days, and you see them rise, and then all of a sudden, there's nowhere for them to go, and they're back. So what do you think that does? That just recreates even more trauma, recreates even more unworthiness, like, there was nobody, and that's why those 30 days, it's like, it's just, it's just really sad to see what, and that's why it's, it is about housing, and I'm not talking housing first, I'm talking about housing with enhanced supportive services.
29:10 You bring in people like us, peer support, walk alongside someone right from the beginning, you meet them right where they're at the first day they move in. And you let them know you're here for the duration, and you know, and there's not a lot of funding for that. I'm lucky enough to work for an organization that does things like that, but there's not a lot, right? But the funding needs to go there, because it's not just housing, it's, it's community, it's connection, relationships, someone feeling like, wow, I matter, I have a friend, really? Because we're out there, like, we are people's friends that are out on the streets, like, that's not, that's real. Like, if you've been out on the streets, and I meet you, we're friends, like, even if we, you haven't, like, I'm here, because I know how it feels. Do you know, watching, watching my children interact, you do build a community, and the relationship that my children built with these other people that we never, you build these communities that were now, like, they were buddies, you know?
30:08 And they would be so excited when we would, you know, if we moved and we came back, you know, waiting to see my kids. It, it made me feel good to watch, to share my children, you know, they're safe, I felt safe enough, to where they got to interact, and they had some, you know, a kid come up to them and want to talk to them, because who's gonna let their kid go and talk to a homeless person? And, but I shared my children with them, and I enjoyed watching that, because my kids got to experience something on a whole nother level. And, and I told my kids, you know, you do a great service when you go and speak to, to, to them, like, like it's your, you know, Uncle Joe. You know, real quick, because I know, you know, I know, I know, um, my, I have my Asher, who's 22, and I was just talking to him recently, because I was out there, and he always wants to go into a job to where he can give and help people, and he, you know, and I was saying, you know, honey, believe it or not, you have lived experience too, because you watched your mom fall, go through addiction, and rise above.
31:09 You were my little champion when you were 11, calling me up when I was at Serenity House, telling me that you love me. You know, you would call me with that sweet little voice, like, Mom, you can get through this, you know, and I, and I didn't have anybody, you know, and so I even, like, cheered up. And so, and he, like, we had this great conversation, because he's in Colorado now, but I just said, think about it, like, you know, so, like, you, all you kids, all our kids, anybody that's been through it, they have this, but also, like, I've seen my daughter and my kids turn this, and what we've been through, and it's been 10 years, but into so much purpose, and they love people, humanity. They understand that it's not just somebody that's, they just, no, it's life. Anybody can fall. I fell, I was 30 when I fell, no idea I would ever be homeless. Right. Oh my gosh, it wasn't even ever, I just didn't even, or do drugs, I mean, there was not even a moment.
31:58 Ever. Until it happened, and I was like, what, oh, whoa, where am I, what's going on, and I knew around me, and that's why I was rising, and it was in and out, but. Never in a million years. And in a moment, we're going to wrap this episode, but then we will come back for our third and final of this trilogy, because I think right now in this second episode, I mean, like, Natalie, it's been incredible to get to know you over the last few months. It has been a huge honor, and very special, and we are friends, and we haven't met until today, and it's been incredible. Thanks. This, and just like, like how powerful, how important and special and wonderful for you to also share this with the folks who listen to radio, but like, this is very special. And I think in our final bit of this, we will do more, but in our opening trilogy, I think we're going to bring this back and connect the dots between these experiences and some of the policy sides, and we will start when we do that on the shelter side a little bit, because I think, you know, so a lot of people who listen to this are policy thinkers and policy makers.
33:02 And, you know, I'm hosting this podcast because I want to build a shit ton of housing, right? And I actually don't care if it's a community local developer, a big fuck-all corporation, the federal government, or a local government. Like, just build it. Let's go. But, and so with that in mind, and then you think about, all right, you get folks on the street, right? And like, let's now step back, and now we're doing this from a policy math standpoint, right? And the goal is to, you know, the goal is to get them off the street. Goal is to put people, goal is to put a roof over our heads, start to stabilize and take care of people, right? And I think this idea of, like, that, like, shelters and those opportunities for somebody who's actually being given that option, the idea that those would feel more dangerous or more humiliating than the problem they're trying to solve, even though I will also tell you that they are fucking expensive to make and operate.
33:49 Yeah. Like, what a disaster of a situation where the things that seem like solutions, and also very expensive and, like, difficult solutions that you have to get a lot of political will and budgeting to even just accomplish, and now you're solving the problem, and the people's problem that is are like, that actually doesn't solve my problem? That fucking sucks, and that is hard, and I don't have an answer, which is why we are hanging out, and that's what we will talk about when we come back on the next episode of Radio Abundance. Now, Lee, Vanessa, thanks for being with us today. Thank you. Thank you.